In this captivating conversation, Dr. Nina Jablonski and Dr. Holly McGee, the brilliant minds behind the children’s book “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” share insights into tackling the topics of colorism and racism through science and storytelling. Join us as they delve into the genesis of their collaboration, the challenges of communicating science to young minds, and the delightful creation of the book’s playful character, “Epi Dermis.”
- How did the idea for “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” originate, and what motivated you to bring the complex topic of skin color evolution to children’s literature?
Dr. Nina Jablonski: It’s a long story. I wrote a book on the evolution of skin color several years ago with a South African co-author for a South African audience. Then, I ran into Jessica Powers from Catalyst Press, who suggested we do a similar project for a North American audience. In late 2018, she spent time looking for a partner who is also a good storyteller, and guess who she came up with? Holly McGee. After some pandemic disruption, we also roped in our illustrator, Karen, and the book gradually happened. Without Holly’s imaginative and distinct text, book title, and character, and Karen’s illustrations, this book wouldn’t be here.
About it being a complex topic, we believe that the science is so important for kids to know. Once we knew the basics, we understood it could be transmitted effectively to little kids. After talking to 6-7 year olds, we found out that children get the basic principles; they only have to be transmitted in a vehicle that’s fun and understandable. You don’t have to give all the details of genetics and radiations; just the basic storyline, and they get it. I am optimistic this will help the little kids a bit more in understanding why we look the way we look.
Dr. Holly McGee: Nina is always very gracious with this question. It was her idea, and she made it accessible. I was grateful I was brought along. All conversations are appropriate with children if we approach them in a proper way.
- Talking about the perfect collaboration, with your expertise in anthropology and palaeobiology, Dr. Jablonski, and your background in history, Dr. McGee, how did your collaboration bridge these disciplines to create a holistic narrative for the book?
Dr. Jablonski: The collaboration was ideal. I could bring in the basic pieces of science, distilled appropriately, and Holly, with her depth of experience in writing and communicating about history, including the history of color-based discrimination, was in a perfect place to distill her knowledge. Holly crafted the way that Epi Dermis as a character speaks, acts, and projects themselves to the world. Our approaches and knowledge bases were entirely complementary.
Dr. McGee: I was a little apprehensive in the beginning when our publisher first came to me. Not that I didn’t think I had the chops to help, but when you are working with someone who is a trained anthropologist, it was very difficult for me to try to conceptualize how I can get small children to think about this. Because I specialize in black studies and African American history, I tend to have very uncomfortable conversations with my students. So, I struggled internally in the beginning about how I can have this uncomfortable conversation with very small children. How do you make this book approachable enough that a parent would want to pick it up for their children and engage in a conversation about it? How do we cover the trajectory of millions and millions of years of evolution in a children’s book in small digestible ways? So, I am glad we landed on this project because it has turned out very well.
- Now, to talk about my favorite element from the book, the main character Epi Dermis. How did they come to be, especially their playful tone?
Dr. Jablonski: We realized that Epi had to look different, not stereotypical, not humanoid. We discussed with Jessica, and Karen, our illustrator, was brought on. It’s when we started speaking with her about the nature of this character that the real beauty, the premise of this book, was born. Epi Dermis is a wonderful shape-shifter; they have different colors, shapes, they shiver, they sweat, they have eyes.
Dr. McGee: I had a lot of fun creating the character of Epi Dermis. There are so many children’s books out there that do not tackle the topics they should. We teach children how to count, read, and write, but there aren’t many books out there that teach children how to be good people. I wanted anything that had my name on it to be qualitatively different from anything that was out there. I spent an entire summer, reviewing over 175 children’s books, to learn how to talk to children at various ages. There are similar trends. They use humans, animals, or amorphous shapes that children know. I wanted to have something where every child could see themselves on every page. If you have skin, you see yourself on every page. Whatever your shade is, it’s in the book because of the character of Epi Dermis.
- It’s often a struggle creating an optimum balance between science and storytelling. In your case, you had forty years’ worth of peer-reviewed research on your hands. How did you balance the storytelling elements with the scientific content to create this narrative that captivates children while remaining true to the rigor of scientific inquiry?
Dr. Jablonski: When you work on a topic for many years, you can distill it. In fact, I can do a short elevator speech on it. So, we had a scientific narrative from which Holly could work and build the Epi character. Then Jessica and her brother suggested having a scientific glossary. It’s a section towards the end of the book that provides additional information and explains all scientific concepts, which a teenager or an adult reader can read and explain to children.
Dr. McGee: One unique thing about “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” is that we have written one of the few children’s books that can actually grow with a child. This book can be read to a child at a young age; they can read the book themselves as they get older, and adults can take that bit of knowledge from the glossary which we had aptly titled, ‘It’s Just Science, Silly!’.
- My next question is for Dr. McGee. How did your expertise in African American history intersect with the scientific aspects of skin color evolution in the creation of this book?
Dr. McGee: It didn’t. I was wholly unprepared for this opportunity. I have dealt with colorism and racism from a very different perspective. As humans, we talk about why this thing matters, not how this happens. I know a lot of this information, but it was a new starting point for me. It allowed me to stretch and grow as an academic, and as a scholar, and as a storyteller. It was a crash course for me in gaining a certain level of scientific acumen that will allow me to even have this type of conversation with young children. I love that you picked up on the playful tone of Epi Dermis, the way it talks to the children. I had to lean more into my history teaching to get that voice, but what that voice spoke about was all Nina’s expertise.
- How do you ensure the book is relatable for people of color outside of the US?
Dr. Jablonski: This book would be more accessible once we translate it into multiple languages, but right now, it is pretty much a global book as it is. It isn’t just written for an American audience. With a few minor tweaks, it could become a textbook for the world.
Dr. McGee: I agree with Nina. “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” is currently being translated into multiple languages. It speaks to people from all diverse backgrounds around the world, but I would like to get on the opposite side. When we were discussing who the audience for this book was, we were told this book will be great for black and brown kids. But it’s not us who need to be told that we should feel confident in our skin. It’s everyone else who needs to read and accept this.
- Okay, I have a fun question. In the realm of science and history, the concept of time is often fascinating. If you could transport “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” to any historical period or future era, which time period would you choose and why?
Dr. Jablonski: I would give this book to the systemists and the naturalists, who first created a classification of humans according to skin color and continent. This was followed by Immanuel Kant and other philosophers in the mid to late 1700s. I would really like to send out a few copies to them and say, ‘Hold your pen. This is nonsense what you are writing.’ This book would give them information, changing their idea entirely of how human appearance developed in the first place. It would have spared us 300 years of woe.
Dr. McGee: I want to go to the future. In 3023. So that some children can pull this book from their virtual shelf, just so they can laugh and make a mockery of the book. They would say, ‘Of course, it’s just skin. Were people really preoccupied with this in the so-called modern era?’. Then there is a part of me who would love to go back in the past to give it to a past professor of mine who accused me of plagiarizing my art history paper. In a college that was 99% white, I, a black student, couldn’t write a well-written paper without cheating he assumed. He turned me to an academic review board for investigation, and I faced potential expulsion. I had not cheated, but only written a paper that was above his belief of what a black student could accomplish. I would like to give this book to that professor and say, “It’s Just Skin, Silly!”
- What are your future plans with this book? Are you planning to expand it?
Dr. Jablonski: Next, we are interested in writing a book about hair.
Dr. McGee: I already have a title in mind!
As we bid farewell to this insightful dialog, it’s clear that “It’s Just Skin, Silly!” is more than a children’s book; it’s a bridge connecting science, history, and diversity. Dr. Nina Jablonski and Dr. Holly McGee’s collaborative efforts unfold as a testament to the power of storytelling in educating and embracing the beauty of our differences.
Dr. Nina Jablonski is an anthropologist and paleobiologist whose research on the evolution of skin color has been published in many scholarly journals, including the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), Nature, and American Psychologist. She is the author of several books, including Living Color: The Biological and Social Meaning of Skin Color and Skin: A Natural History. She has also been a featured TED Talk speaker and has appeared as a guest on shows such as The Colbert Report and Bill Nye’s Science Rules! podcast. Dr. Jablonski has extensive experience in the development of science-related youth curriculum from grades K-12.
Dr. Holly Y. McGee is a historian at the University of Cincinnati. Dr. McGee’s research, teaching, and publishing in the fields of African American History, comparative black politics, and South African history provide critical insight into historical narratives regarding the social creation of “race” and subsequent proliferation of racism in modern society. She is the author of “One Day We Are Going Home”: The Long Exile of Elizabeth Mafeking, and founder of the nonprofit National Black Teachers Association.
Illustrator- Karen Vermeulen is an artist, illustrator, and teacher living in Cape Town, South Africa. Her work is happy, uplifting and quirky. When she is not busy with some creative project, she is probably playing with her cat, Sir Henry.
Author-
Dhara Parekh, a business professional with an unwavering passion for science and astronomy, found her true calling as a science fiction author. She melds her diverse experiences from living like a nomad into writing novels. When her fingers aren’t prancing on the keyboard, she’s either learning about the next fresh interest she has stumbled upon or reading fiction in a painful position, or finding hacks to understand humans. An alien on the pale blue dot converting her bizarre thoughts into Times New Roman.
Editors-
Sumbul Jawed Khan, Roopsha Sengupta
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